PreSonus StudioLive 24.4.2 System - TheatreFace

To those who were interested.…

2011-10-05T19:53:57.701Z

To those who were interested. I got a response from Mr. Bob Tudor Presonus Chief Technology Officer in regards to why the board mutes for a split second during scene changes. It took a while because they are very busy finishing up drivers for Apple's Lion Operating System.

Without further ado, here's Bob's response...

It had to do with concerns of the worst case scenario of a scene change. There were initial concerns because of how much capability is built into these mixers that a scene change that made the highest possible number of changes could overload the DSP system and cause loud pops or clicks. The SHARC processor these were built with actually has the capability to do a completely silent scene change in a standalone configuration. The folks who created the board thought it would be safer to mute the outputs temporarily to avoid even the slightest possibility of damage to outboard equipment.

It is absolutely possible to change scenes instantly and silently (unless the user has something configured improperly) while connected to a computer. The processing in a computer has the ability to throttle the firewire connection to achieve more data throughput and thus making the change instant and silent. There are also many other advantages to using the mixer and computer together. VSL, unlimited scene count, Capture, and Studio One integration are all there for the user. Using this with a computer connected opens an entire universe of possibilities and answers a lot of concerns.

The muting is on the list of things to readdress along with about thirty thousand other suggested upgrades to the original design. Many of the suggested upgrades have been achieved and were completely free of charge to all current and future users through firmware updates.

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I hope that clears up any questions anyone had about scene changes. I have personally used these mixers for nearly every type of conceivable use and have had no issues that I didn't actually cause in regards to muting while connected to a computer.

I've got one more blog post coming for you folks this weekend on The virtual StudioLive software and StudioLive Remote. After that I unfortunately have to disappear for a few months. But I will keep tabs on this blog as often as I can to allay any fears and answer any questions.

Hello again everyone and sorr…

2011-09-08T20:18:39.866Z

Hello again everyone and sorry for my absence. Here in Jeresy it's been a rough couple of weeks.

I have a message out to Presonus waiting for an approved response in regards to the muting issue. The only reason I'm waiting for their response is so that I don't accidentally give away any trade secrets. Should only be a couple days and we'll have the official answer.

So I thought while we wait we I could start a little bit of dialog about the Capture software that comes with the mixer.

So Capture as stated in the review is a very barebones recording and playback software. It is fully integrated and only works with the StudioLive mixers. Upon startup it identifies which StudioLive model is connected and automatically sets up the input and output section for you. Very simple and happens with a simple click of the mouse.

Upon opening it gives you several simple options for configuration of what you want to record. Those being sample rate (I recommend 48K) and file storage location. It will default to your documents folder so if you have limited space on your primary drive like I do, you'll want to change that. You can also create the file name and all the other usual stuff.

Once you set all your options up (only takes about a minute) you'll want to click OK and then you'll see the user interface. You'll have a track set and ready to go for each input (coming in automatically from firewire immediately after the A/D converter). There's also a track setup for the main outputs as a stereo pair so you can grab what is coming off of your mains as well. All there and all automatic.

A simple click of Arm All Tracks and the record button and you're multi-tracking every input and the main outputs. Very Very simple.

If you don't feel like recording you can use this as a playback device as well. Dump a track in WAV format on a selected track, press the Firewire return button on the mixer, cue up the track, and hit play when you're ready. It will come out of the mixer on the channel you've selected and you can use all of the processing and capabilities of the Fat Channel on it if you're feelin' froggy.

It also has a basic set of editing controls to cut, paste, select, loop, etc. The user interface is also drag and drop simple to operate. you find a WAV file you need, drag it in and drop it. No more CD players and trying to remember which track is which. Fewer mistakes and "I'm gonna kill you when you're alone" looks from the director.

Also because the mixer is far more than just 24 by 24 I/O you have the ability to assign other things to the track for recording. Say for example the orchestra drum section is absolutely outstanding and you want to record the entire group of them on one track. Simply assign all of them to a subgroup on the mixer and then use Core Audio or WDM (Mac or PC) and rearrange one of the channels to receive the output of the subgroup instead of each channel.

Another sweet option is printing the dynamics and processing you've done with a simple one button press per channel. Say you've got the lead vocalist dialed in perfectly. Why deal with having to process her audio again later. Press the DigOut button on the mixer and the entire Fat Channel will then be recorded for that individual channel. Just remember to reset the Fat Channel on that track to null before playing back through the firewire returns (did it once, freaked me completely out and took me a few minutes to figure out the problem).

And I guess while I'm on the subject how about the most useful application for Capture. In my live world we call it a virtual soundcheck. All I have to do is record the band at a previous event where they sounded their best. Open those tracks with Capture. Arm the firewire returns where I have something to playback. Click Play. I now have a full band in front of me and I can adjust to my heart's content before they even show up. I'm ready before they even get there. Makes life much easier.

There are other prctical applications as well. Say your lead vocalist is a bit of a Prima Donna and is never on time. First off, I'd fire her after the second time. But if that isn't an option, how about you just practice without her. You've got her voice in Capture from previous rehearsals. Throw the track on there. Arm the firewire return and hit play. Everyone else can practice while she's doing whatever it is she said would make her late. This will save time and money. You're not wasting time and funds on hired personnel that actually showed on time to rehearse.

Another nice thing about this is that a director can actually use it as a training tool. Imagine being able to let your performers hear what they really sound like through the PA system that the audience is using to hear them. It can make a huge difference. The director can stop and start at any point in the production. Isolate particular parts or groups and present them to the performers. Think about how much better the production could get after just a few rehearsals like this. Presonus did a really nice video on this using their new 16.0.2 mixer. It is taken from the perspective of a school band but if you imagine a bit I'm sure you could find ways to implement the technology.

One final thing I'd like to mention before I start fielding questions is instant recordings. In my business when I deal with a band they like to have things to sell after the event. One of those things for you could easily be a copy of the evening's production. Arm all your tracks, click record, drop markers at each section, click stop. click mixdown. Boom everything from the entire night to a two track stereo mix able to be sold within minutes of the final curtain. All you need is a CD burner on your computer and a cloning machine and you have instant extra income all while the crowd is cheering and throwing roses at the end. Not a bad day's work.

And this is just one of the pieces of software that come completely free with the mixer.

It's always been a love for m…

2011-08-24T00:19:45.273Z

It's always been a love for me. Then moved to a hobby. Then to a way of life.

I have a love for good live bands but can't play guitar well enough, so I went to school and learned to help others make their music through computers.

Jon, Thanks for the investiga…

2011-08-23T23:51:59.794Z

Jon, Thanks for the investigation and don't worry about any timing.

I install very large video projectors to keep the Cheerios on my table. Audio is a love that is a hobby at this time.

John

Yeah, I get exactly what you'…

2011-08-23T23:48:50.117Z

Yeah, I get exactly what you're talking about. It's exactly what would make it work like we've been wanting it to in standalone mode. That's exactly what I'm gonna talk to them about.

Again to make sure everyone else understands, a scene change while connected does not exhibit this condition.

I'm not near my StudioLive's for a few weeks but I will try to remember to grab you a recording when I get back home. I'll get you a tone of both standalone and connected setups. You might need to remind me though.

I don't work for Presonus. I've got one of those jobs that means I have to travel a lot and wear steel toe combat boots. Close to retirement though. Live sound and event work is a business I run on the side along with custom computer building to keep Cheerios on the table. I spend a great deal of time on the Presonus forum helping folks out getting their systems configured. Firewire is kind of a pain for most Windows users and I do my best to steer them through it.

Jon, For example: What I mea…

2011-08-23T21:57:00.964Z

Jon,

For example: What I mean is scene 16 is currently running but my next needed scene is 20 so I cue up 20 in the scene window then when the scene is actually needed you "take" that scene. I assume you can skip over unneeded scenes?

Do you work for Presonus? If you do can you post a sound file illustrating what the mute sounds like recalling scenes with a steady state tone running continuously while switching between scenes? Please have the tone at the same level (in both scenes)and bring in a second channel with silence being its sound source. One file using the board only and another using the external computer will clear things up for me.

Thank you.

Hi John, Two things about you…

2011-08-23T19:05:43.418Z

Hi John, Two things about your statements here that I'd like to address.

First you mention the Cue of the scene. This isn't how this system runs scenes from standalone operation. There is no cue. It is a single button press.

I am only speculating, but I am assuming the cue in other mixers is actually using the processor to identify current component locations and performing the mathematic calculations to process the next scene.

With a single button press setup like is used here, the system would take much longer to figure out the locations figure the difference and then implement the difference to make the scene change possible. Where if it takes it to null every time there is not as much math involved which actually makes this process, such as it is, go faster. Though not faster than a cue and load scenario, obviously.

Again, this is all pointless if you are connected to a computer. Which I think is the main reason to use a digital mixer in the first place. It is nearly seamless when using this way and does not mute.

And second, I will have to ask what speed the processor is in there. I believe it is either a 24-bit or 32-bit Floating point. I will let you know as soon as I find out.

I'm going to be in Baton Rouge in a few weeks at the Presonus HQ to be a guest on their live Tech Talk production. I will bring this possible solution to the eyes of the powers that be and see if they can implement it in a system update. Brilliant method.

Hi Richard and thank you for…

2011-08-22T18:35:23.540Z

Hi Richard and thank you for jumping in,

There are others who share your concern, I'm certain.

Tick was probably a bad choice of words on my part. It's kind of like the sound of a CD changing from one track to the next, if that makes sense. Unless you know to listen for it and pay very close attention you won't hear it. This is in a connected configuration with a computer running through the firewire interface.

The only time the board actually drops audio is when changing scenes in standalone configuration. Standalone is when you do not have a computer connected to the firewire providing the scenes via VSL. The reason for this is the math to make everything work takes all the settings to null and then to the new setting. I personally don't recommend ever using the mixer without a computer attached. It just gives you too much extra to not have it.

Presonus does surprise us often with free updates to the mixers that address these sort of things and give us new toys to play with. A prime example is the addition of 31 band equalizers to the main and Aux outputs of the SL16. Nothing like saving space (and money) by not having to keep a bunch of equalizers in the rack.

They are aware of this limitation in the standalone setup. I wouldn't be surprised to see it come along in an update.

As far as the flying faders, I can see your point. It has been a point of contention since the introduction of the SL16.

I personally have no need for flyers in most cases. You're not dealing with multiple layers where you have eight sliders controlling twenty-four channels and have to worry of them being matched to each bank for manual adjustment.

The other downside to moving faders is the added cost involved. Presonus's official stance on this (from what I've read) is that flying faders would have pushed the cost too high to make the mixer marketable. It would also have put them out of the range of the group of people they were considering for the devices. They wanted to keep these in the hands of as many people as possible. I know I couldn't have afforded as many of them as I have if they had decided differently.

Presonus did manage a nice compromise in the fader locator capability. A simple press of a button and you can match the faders manually to the settings from the preset using the built in meter bridge. It has worked well for me for nearly two years.

Again, I appreciate your honest response.

With regard to the muting at…

2011-08-22T18:23:00.490Z

With regard to the muting at each and every scene recall (which I feel is a deal killer):

Presonus says the reason the mute happens is because of the massive amount of processing needed to compute from where the faders are now to where they will be at the next recall forced the mute. They MUST reset everything to zero before the new values can be loaded. Hmmmmmm

When you think about it even a lowly four bit processor can compute these values when you realize the time between when a scene is cued up and when the "take" button is presses. I know I cue up my next scene anywhere between seconds and minutes before the "take" button is pressed. Even the slowest processor can compute the 24 channels and other changes needed. I would put more weight in Presonus' "reason" if the mute happened only with near-zero time between "cue" and "take". If more than a few seconds elapse the calculations are easy for even slow processors to perform.

Alternately I ask if the processor is running at a constant 100% utilization even with every processor load disabled or minimized?

Thanks for the review. I'm…

2011-08-22T15:05:49.315Z

Thanks for the review.

I'm wondering if any others have the same concern I have about the "slight tick" issue. From everything I've read about this console on the Theatre Sound email list and on other forums as well, this could be a pretty significant issue, depending on how you like to work and what type of mixing work you are doing. I've read that the tick is because when the Presonus recalls a Scene there is actually a very tiny moment where it stops passing audio. Obviously I'm not sure that is exactly what is happening, but it is fairly widely reported, so I'm just going by what others have written about it.

For some mixers we might want to recall settings while someone is singing on stage or during points in the show that need to be a very subtle mix. I would think a tick or glitch in the audio in those circumstances would be fairly disruptive aurally. At least in my opinion anyway.

All the comments I've read were about the 16.4.2 model, so it's unfortunate to hear that Presonus didn't fix this issue before they released the 24.4.2. Unfortunately I feel this glitch issue and the lack of moving faders makes it seem like a fairly limited choice for mixing theatre sound. Just my opinion, but considering that I have worked with numerous different digital mixing consoles and none of them have had a glitch when you recall a Scene, I think most theatre sound users should look elsewhere frankly.